According to a survey conducted by the University College London, 64% of young, Black people in England were vaccine hesitant. This week, we discuss vaccine hesitancy in Black communities and explore some historical reasons for mistrust in healthcare systems. We dive into public engagement strategies, deciphering how science is communicated to the public. We also re-iterate why vaccines are still valuable.
Do you think Black people should take the COVID-19 vaccine? Tell us why at: worldhealthinvestigation@gmail.com
Enjoyed the episode? Please share and give us a cheeky 5 star review :)
Make sure you follow us on our socials to get our latest updates.
Like what you hear? Please leave a like, subscribe and share.
Today’s case study: Nicki Minaj’s tweet - https://twitter.com/NICKIMINAJ/status/1437532566945341441?s=20&t=TtAuxrTQEGRNMKefns-fMA
Additional resources:
Survey says 64% of young black people in England are 'vaccine hesitant': https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/16/survey-says-64-of-young-black-people-in-england-are-vaccine-hesitant
Brandt, A. M. "Racism and research: The case of theTuskegee Syphilis study." The Hastings Center Report 8(6): 21-29 (1978) : https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/3372911/Brandt_Racism.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
Follow us on our socials so you don’t miss anything!
According to a survey conducted by the University College London, 64% of young, Black people in England were vaccine hesitant. This week, we discuss vaccine hesitancy in Black communities and explore some historical reasons for mistrust in healthcare systems. We dive into public engagement strategies, deciphering how science is communicated to the public. We also re-iterate why vaccines are still valuable.
Do you think Black people should take the COVID-19 vaccine? Tell us why at: worldhealthinvestigation@gmail.com
Enjoyed the episode? Please share and give us a cheeky 5 star review :)
Make sure you follow us on our socials to get our latest updates.
Like what you hear? Please leave a like, subscribe and share.
Today’s case study: Nicki Minaj’s tweet - https://twitter.com/NICKIMINAJ/status/1437532566945341441?s=20&t=TtAuxrTQEGRNMKefns-fMA
Additional resources:
Survey says 64% of young black people in England are 'vaccine hesitant': https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/16/survey-says-64-of-young-black-people-in-england-are-vaccine-hesitant
Brandt, A. M. "Racism and research: The case of theTuskegee Syphilis study." The Hastings Center Report 8(6): 21-29 (1978) : https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/3372911/Brandt_Racism.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
Follow us on our socials so you don’t miss anything!
Loza:
According to a survey conducted by y’alls university, UCL, 64% of young, Black people in England were vaccine hesitant.
Edna:
We have good science and we have mRNA technology and all these things. But we have not addressed this huge mistrust that has been building for many, many, many years.
Jocelyne:
One thing about outbreaks, they don’t discriminate. You may face racism, you may face all this social discirmination, but viruses affect everybody.
Jocelyne:
Hello, Globies. Welcome to the World Health Investigation Podcast. My name is Jocelyne.
Edna:
I'm Edna.
Loza:
And I'm Loza.
Edna:
We're three, young global health professionals and your hosts for the World Health Investigation Podcast.
Loza:
Also known as WHI. We'll be discussing all things global health and unpacking the most controversial health topics.
Edna:
As well as promoting new-wave global health equity and development.
Jocelyne:
So, ladies, what's the tea in global health?
Edna:
What’s the tea today Loza?
Loza:
It’s a little bit hot today y’all. The tea is a little bit hot, y’all better be ready.
Jocelyne:
Okay tell us sis.
Loza:
You all know about the vaccine? The COVID one?
Jocelyne:
Oh, the one we’re supposed to take in this pandemic.
Loza:
This panoramic, this panasonic. The one that is not ending.
We're talking about vaccine hesitancy. All right, let's get into it besties.
Jocelyne
This gon’ be a real one.
Loza
It’s gonna be real you know…but it’s ok we support…anyways. Alright, so let's dive in. I'm going to start with a little case study. A little one two. Y’all remember in September when, y’all know Nicki Minaj?
Jocelyne
Nicki Minaj
Loza
Onika Miraj. I love her
Jocelyne
Queen of rap.
Loza
Controversial. Yeah, she posted a little tweet that had people a little shook. She was talking about her cousin in Trinidad who does not want to get this COVID vaccine because his friend got it and she said he became impotent. Is this the cause? They became swollen.
Jocelyne
After getting the vaccine?
Loza
That's what she said. Allegedly. Me I don’t know wasn't there. I don't know him. They got swollen and it’s tough. And then he was about to get married. His fiancée left him.
Jocelyne
This is a serious matter y’all.
Edna
Yeah yeah yeah yeah; someone’s life.
Loza
She didn’t want parts with it. So in the end, she told everybody, just pray on it and make sure you're comfortable with your decision to get the vaccine and not to get bullied into it. Alright, fair enough. Twitter erupted that day. People were screaming and throwing up and you know opinions were split as they always. People one side were in support of her, they said “Finally someone speaking out like, I don't feel comfortable taking this vaccine. I don't know where it came from. I'm hearing these stories as well.”
And then on the other side, health care professionals and other people are like, “Oh, no, some people have a lot of influence is sort of spreading information to discourage people from taking the vaccine” So the government is a little involved. They're like, “Nicki is okay, we'll educate you about the vaccine. Please don't say that.”
I found it interesting because it was like a little example of what I see within my own circle. Like people I know in different communities of how people have reacted to this COVID vaccine and particularly amongst our peoples. Our Balck people. So I looked into it, I wanted to see what was going on.
And so different countries obviously have different statistics. But in the UK, according to a survey conducted by y’alls university, UCL…
Jocelyne
University College London.
Loza
Alright chill. 64% of young black people in England were vaccine hesitant. And this was before. It's higher than I was expecting you all. And this was vaccines in general, not even necessarily the covered vaccine.
Edna:
64??
Jocelyne:
64?!?
Loza
It’s a little higher than i was expecting y’all. Lowkey. And this was vaccines in general not just the COVID-19 vaccine. So you can imagine now with the panasonic, the mistrust is a little higher. You know what I mean?
Edna
Yeah.
Loza
And just to define what vaccine hesitancy is, according to the WHO, they define it as a delay in the acceptance or just complete refusal of when they safe vaccines despite the availability of the vaccine. So that's what vaccine hesitancy is.
Jocelyne
So I think we need to put a little disclaimer.
Loza
I think we do, I think we do. I feel like it's a tricky topic, especially now. And I don’t really want to be speaking down on people.
Edna
In a pandemic that is always evolving and we are always learning new things.
Loza
Absolutely. That's one thing to consider. Science is always changing. So y’all gotta stay on top of it.
Jocelyne
Yeah. And this podcast is not intending to discourage anyone from taking their vaccine or invalidate their fears.
Loza
Exactly.
Jocelyne
We're doing this based on well-rounded research and not only our opinions.
Loza
Yeah. Do with that what you will. Definitely, it's not to tell you your fears are invalid; you're being dumb.
Edna
Exactly.
Loza
We’re not trying to do that. So do you guys feel? Y’all got the vaccine?
Edna:
I got the vaccine. I got my three doses. A little mix and match. First two doses were Moderna and the third one was Pfizer.
Loza:
Yeah. They say it offers better protection.
Jocelyne:
Yeah. My first two doses were actually Pfizer. But what's funny is that I had my first dose and then I had COVID.
Loza
Rona got you.
Jocelyne
Then the rona got me, it caught me. Finally.
Edna
Finally
Loza
Not finally, you were ready for a fight weren't you?
Jocelyne
I wasn't ready because I was expecting to get my second dose and then I had COVID. And then I had to wait for four weeks after I recovered from COVID to get the vaccine.
To be completely honest, I was a little bit hesitant when it first came out because I thought it's a bit too soon. I don't know what's going to happen, but eventually I did further research. I kept getting these GP messages.
Loza
They said, please come.
Edna
You better come.
Loza
Yeah I think for a lot of people the vaccine came too soon was a big concern. But I'll say this, in the world of science, money goes a long way and there was a lot of investment into it because COVID was stopping people's economies and people didn't like that. They said “Hurry up and fix it.”
Jocelyne
Hurry up. For once they all came together so quickly. Think about how HIV has been with us.
Loza
Yeah, have your read, like now because of the COVID vaccine, they are now thinking about making a vaccine for HIV. It’s inspiring people.
Jocelyne
We’ve had HIV with us for decades and there has been no vaccine. And now COVID is affecting our economy. So everybody got together, all the scientific, big pharma, everybody got together.
Loza
Y’all so how they were scrambling. They're making money.
Edna:
Let's also not forget this was the same case with Ebola. The vaccine was developed fast fast.
Loza
Fast fast the moment it reached the United States of America
Edna
Yeah. There's also that aspect to it. It's not just something far away over there, in some tropical whatever.
Loza
We know how they feel about the tropical. Exactly. That's why they were quick quick. When it comes to their money, they're quick.
But now, you know, I want to focus on my people and so I wanted to look more into like, why is there a higher hesitancy amongst Black people? There is hesitancy in all demographics, but why is it higher amongst black people? And we spoke a lot about this in our decolonizing health episode. Go watch that.
But, within the medical system it doesn't have a very good track record with Black people, essentially. There have been instances that have created, like, mistrust within the community that are valid. For example, you know, the very famous ones: there's the Tuskegee experiments which we touched up on in case of Henrietta Lackks. I don't know, Edina, if you want to explain that one a little bit.
Edna
Yeah so the Tuskegee syphilis study, I think, is one that people continue to bring up, especially people in America. So, for people that don't know, a little bit of history about the Tuskegee, the famous Tuskegee syphilis study. Essentially, what happened was in Tuskegee in the US, 600 African American men were recruited for a study on the progression of untreated syphilis. So back then in 1932, there still wasn't treatment for syphilis when the study first began. But in 1947, penicillin became like the standard treatment for syphilis. Like, by 1947, they had it now. But the thing is, the treatment was still withheld from participants in the Tuskegee syphilis study. Now, that obviously is very unethical. Like, that could never happen today.
But what it brought up, I would say for me, just sort of like analysing and giving a bit of my personal perspective is that, probably I would suspect that the treatment was withheld because again, they were using Black people as the participants. We know America and many places in the world have a history of not really valuing Black people's lives. Essentially, it was like “Hmm yes we could give them treatment…”
Loza
“We kinda want to see how this disease progresses even after finding treatment.”
Edna
Even after finding treatment
Jocelyne
I'm sorry, Edna, correct me if I'm wrong. I also read somewhere that some of these patients got infected with syphilis and they didn’t get the treatment. And on top of that, some of them already had syphilis. I'm not sure if that's correct, but I think that's mad.
Loza
That’s mad. I think it was people that already had syphilis,
Edna
People that already had syphilis. In fact, I think back then, they used to call it like bad blood or something. And so when they were all recruited, they were told that they were actually going to get treatment for bad blood. So obviously, if I'm there, I have syphilis already and they're like, yeah come be a part of this study, we want to treat you. Yes, of course, I will sign up. But already that was a bit misleading because they didn't have treatment at the time. And even when they found it, they didn't.
Loza
Yeah, exactly. So that was just one example. I think that's the most famous example of cases where Black bodies have been dispensable in medicine. And so for some people, that is a reason why they still have mistrust of the healthcare system. But it's not always like people always…that’s just the backdrop of it. But it's not like everyone sits there and they're like, suspicious of this vaccine because of historical reasons. People also have currently bad experiences within the healthcare system. A lot of Black people have their pain denied in healthcare systems. They are not taken seriously. So then it is very difficult for them now to, in the face of this pandemic that is scary to run back to the same system that sort of denies their own experience and denies their own pain. And that is a reason that is cited often for why people kind of don't want to participate.
Edna
And I will say - oh, go on Jocelyne.
Jocelyne
I was gonna say, what really baffles me the most is that when we see the Western media reporting that Black people don't want to take the COVID vaccine, Africans don't like the COVID vaccine but they fail to report their personal experience, they fail to report the historical context. They fail to report the people's experiences and try to understand the reasons why they're deciding not to take this vaccine. It's not a really random reason, it’s the mistrust that’s there,that needs to be addressed.
Loza
Yes. And this goes back to the passive language of like, yeah, the coverage pandemic is affecting this group more and this group doesn't want to get the vaccine. And it's very passive when they kind of make it look like race is the issue. When racism is the issue.
Edna
Yes, 100%. And again,
Loza
Going back to this one.
Edna
Yeah. Again, going back to this one race is not the risk factor, it’s the racism that is the risk factor. But I think also something that we touched upon in the decolonizing episode is the reason why we think about the historical context is the fact that, like I said, we still see it affecting us in the present. I think for me, the story that was very funny at the beginning, if you guys remember that French man, that really went on TV before the vaccine, was it when vaccine trials were just starting or about to?
Loza
Were there even vaccine talks back then? I think the corona had just started.
Jocelyne
It was at the prime beginning of COVID.
Edna
At the prime beginning of COVID, they were already like, “Africa is going to be hit hardest and therefore…”
Loza
They were foaming at the mouth for that case study.
Edna
Yeah, we should go and test this vaccine, we should go have clinical trials in Africa.
Loza
He said, “They are going to die from it anyway, so let’s just recruit a couple.” People got mad and he said, “Why y’all yelling at me? I’m just trying to help them.”
Edna
And that's why I found again, it was giving like, “Oh, we can just go test it on these Africans, these poorer, Black people.” And similar to Tuskegee, it's giving your lives don't really matter that much.
Loza
Yeah. And it's a little bit of like a theme I notice in global health a little bit.
Edna
Exactly. And that's why it's important for us to still recognize the history. Like you said, Loza.
Loza
100%. Like, I think it's important when people talk about vaccine hesitancy, I think people really discount people's experiences. I hear a lot from the perspective of health care professionals being like, okay, it's just because they are uneducated and they're just going on Facebook and getting from Facebook University. But maybe sometimes Facebook University treated them better, believed their pain. And so I think science communicators and health care practitioners have a responsibility to gain the trust of people and not really look down on them and talk down on them when after years of trauma they don't want to participate.
Jocelyne
I'm sorry, no matter how much research you have done, how many papers you have published, how many conferences you have attended to speak about this vaccine, if you don't address the root of the problem, don't address that mistrust, there will continue to be vaccine hesitancy. And there will continue to be these new variants. And there will continue to need to get people to take the vaccine. And they will continue to say, no.
Loza
We will need more boosters.
Jocelyne
We will need more and more boosters. I feel like this vaccine hesitancy concern is even, almost as important as finding these new boosters,
Edna
100%. 100%. Because what I find interesting is that, yes, we have been able to quickly develop these vaccines, which is almost like a feat in and of itself.
Loza
It’s amazing. Like, people don’t appreciate how amazing, like how quickly the scientists moved.
Edna
Exactly. I know people were concerned about how quickly that is and we can dive into that. But I think it's a feat in and of itself that when we pull our resources together, we're able to do this. But all of that does not matter if people are still not going to uptake the vaccine once you actually release it. And a key reason for that is there is maybe decades, hundreds of years of history there that we still have not addressed. Yes we have good science and we have mRNA technology and all these things, but we have not addressed this huge mistrust that has been building for many many many many many years.
Loza
There's a disconnect. And even when COVID started, you could see the conspiracy. So like I knew what's coming. I knew the hesitancy was coming. And I don't know how that was not address initially. I think a lot of the talks I saw about the vaccine was like, “Yeah yeah, it's coming in six months, everyone is going to take it. We're going to get out of this pandemic.” And I said, “Are you all sure everyone's going to take it? Have you considered that one? Have you seen what people are saying?” There's a disconnect, I feel. And then they act surprised. They're like, “Oh, my God, why y’all not taking this vaccine?”
Jocelyne
You know what else is crazy. Is that when this vaccine came out, as I told you, I mentioned before, that I was a little hesitant. I was not necessarily hesitant because I was doubting the science. I was particularly hesitant because when I was about to get my first dose, some of my family members were yelling at me. I had family members come to me after I got my first dose, I was told, “Oh, you don't know what's going to happen to you. You're going to become sterile. These white people don't like us. You're there risking your life. If at the age of 25, you don't have children, don't be surprised. You're going to get all these brain diseases. It was told to me. And it really made me think, these are everything, these are the things that I've studied during my course. I’ve literally heard about this vaccine hesitancy stuff and it's happening live, right? It's my own people. My own family, my own friends.
Loza
No yeah, it’s true, it’s true. It's and it's like, of course you hear all of that, how are you not going to be scared? Like, oh, maybe I don't want to inject it to me. I think it needs to be communicated better. But I think what I want to say to the “these white people don't like us”. Yeah if this vaccine was so bad and if it was to target us, they would not be running in droves to take this vaccine and keeping it from African countries. You get what I mean? They would not be hoarding it. They would be sending it for free.
Jocelyne
They would be sending it for free.
Loza
Why do you think some of these countries are fighting over it? This one, you know, this one is actually like, if my measure is that they want to take it this bad, it's probably like, it's probably good,
Jocelyne
It’s probably good.
Loza
Take advantage because [inaudible]…
Edna
I'm not going to lie, generally like I do sort of pay attention to what the richer may be…whiter people are doing, because usually those are the first groups of people that will be protected by something. They're also taking the vaccine. They also really want, you know, all of us, to be out of this pandemic. It's affecting them too
Loza
It’s affecting their money.
Edna
It's affecting their money. That's why I was feeling already a bit like it should be fine.
Loza
Yeah, part of it.
Edna
And also also the science,
Loza
And not only just the cover vaccine, but I think with the percentage of like vaccine hesitancy for all other vaccines, I think it's important to understand, like, vaccines are like a really big scientific achievement at the end of the day. Like they've reduced mortality significantly. I think a lot of people say, you know, “My great grandparents didn't meet vaccines. They were fine. Like immunity. Natural immunity kicks in.” But people don't consider, like life expectancy, the reason why it's increased so much is because, especially child mortality has decreased significantly as a result of vaccines. You all don't hear about people with polio anymore. You all don't hear about people dying from measles anymore. That's because of a vaccine. It's not like some crazy thing that's here to control you. It really is just a little thing to help your immune system fight disease and say y’all don't die. That's it.
Jocelyne
I've heard different people saying, okay, it's not necessary. I don’t have to take it. Why should I take something if I'm already infected anyways? Why should I take something that, when, policies and guidelines keep on changing? They first said will take one dose, then it's two doses, then it's three doses. There might even be a fourth and fith dose. We're going to keep on taking doses. Does the government and do these companies know what they're inserting inside of our bodies?
Loza
Right.
Jocelyne
Let's address that point. I think we need to unpack that and address that specifically.
Loza
I think it's valid, especially because I think initially when the vaccine came out, it was like it's going to prevent infections. And then we did a left turn and now you'll get the vaccine, you'll still get infected. You said you got your first dose, you got infected. I had my three doses, I had COVID last week. I was filming a podcast with COVID. I was okay. I said, because of the boosters. But, I think it's important to address how it was communicated. I get why people are unsure and mistrusting of it because the information keeps changing. But what I will say is it's because science is always changing. Like, you don't have to accept everything you're told as, like, a solid thing, and it will never change. But, and it's the reason why now you'll get infected is because there have been so many variants. Like, we're on Omicron, no, COVID 5.0, you know what I mean? The original COVID from 2020, she's gone, she's dead. We have had 20 variants. And consider that this vaccine that we're getting was for the original one. Like, science is moving fast, but COVID moving faster than science.
Jocelyne
COVID is moving faster than science. If you understood the way this virus replicates and changes at the speed at which it changes, I'm even shocked that we got these vaccines so quickly.
Edna
Yeah
Loza
Yeah. And so because it's moving so much, then the statistics are also changing. It's not because they don't know what they're doing. It's because as the virus changes, you also have to adapt, like, the recommendations at the end of the day. And so I think people have to consider that science is not like a one thing is true and it's true forever.
Edna
Yeah. I think more broadly for me as well, and Loza I think we've talked about this before is like an issue in terms of how science is communicated. And it's not a surprise that we see some of these things because we know science is a bit hard to communicate. And I think part of it as well comes from governments as well fail to give people the expectations. Like, let's say the three of us, we have studied, like, biomedicine, medical sciences so we know a little bit of virology. We may be already like, oh, my goodness, we know about how viruses replicate, RNA viruses. So we…
Loza
We can see it coming.
Edna
We can see it coming where there could be variants. It happens. Right? So we would not be too like shocked if that were to happen. We're like, yeah, we kind of would see this normally, but the government never communicated that. The government works with scientists, scientists that know this the same way we do
Loza
The scientists tell them.
Edna
The scientists tell them. But the government still does not communicate to the public. The government was, like, “Lockdown. Let's flatten the curve. Only two weeks lockdown, guys. Only two weeks.” Now, we saw that as the public it wasn't just two weeks. So really, we are not trusting the government is not able to give people realistic expectations of how a pandemic can actually evolve.
Loza
Yeah, 100%. I think that's a big thing. Governments don't communicate these things because it doesn't really help them. People will panic, I guess. Or at least…I think they should give people the benefit of the doubt. But, yeah, they started with, like, we're going to flatten the curve and it's going to be two weeks because people will panic if they hear three months, one year, two years. But you need to really communicate a realistic thing, because then to people it's going to look like left turns and right turns when the government keeps extending things and said, “Oh, now there's a new variant and now there's a new booster.” And people know what's going on. This was not the initial agreement
Jocelyne
And on thing we've seen even in previous epidemics, previous pandemics. One thing that's very common is that if something is miscommunicated, if people don't understand things very well, there will be public fear.
Loza
Yeah. They will make their own…
Jocelyne
People will fear something that they don't understand. And if you're someone that okay, we're not here to say that, okay, your fears are not valid, not justified. We understand those fears. We have faced those fears ourselves. But think about it this way, the vaccine offers you some protection. It offers you some protection from being hospitalised. Right. It's kind of like you're going to war. Imagine you're going to war. You don't have a helmet, you don't have anything.
Loza
No armour.
Jocelyne
You deciding not to take that vaccine is like you're going to war without any protection, without any protection from being severely ill from these new variants. And the reality is, there’ll, I'm not saying that I want it to happen, I wish I didn't have to say this, but there will be new variants and we're going to have to adapt and we have to do it together with nobody left behind. Because if one group is left behind, even if it means us, then everyone goes down.
Edna
Yeah. I think I like the analogy used of war. And another one that I think could help is one like my Dad was actually saying, it's like with car accidents and seat belts. Just because accidents continue to happen, does that mean we're not going to start saying seat belts are not helpful? Seatbelts can still to help you reduce the likelihood of like dying in a car crash? Right. Make sure you're not going to jump through the windscreen or hit your head on something and die. Same thing with the vaccine, simply because we continue to see virus and we need these boosters does not suddenly mean that the vaccine is not helping at all.
Jocelyne
No, the vaccine, it's still very helpful. Believe me, if we didn't have this vaccine, people would be dead.
Loza
Yeah. I want you guys to do, if you want to do your own research. It's true. If you look at the COVID graphs, like look at them in the UK. I'm from Switzerland, I look at them in Switzerland. Look at in your country, look at the vaccine coverage and look at their infection levels last year and the hospitalizations and their deaths from last year. And compare it to this year, you can actually see the vaccine thing working because infections are a lot higher this year than they were last year because most countries we are not in lockdown anymore. I know, Boris, in your country, you said no masks as well. So infections are crazy. But the good thing is people aren't dying as much anymore and people aren't in hospitals as much anymore. And we can't deny that the vaccines actually worked and helped with that. And that's the main goal of it. I think they're doubtful of it because it doesn't prevent infection. But that is not the claim. It's not the claim. It just it will help you not get severe disease.
Jocelyne
Yeah. And it’s important that we really clarify that. We’re not saying if you get the vaccine, you will never get CVOID. But believe me, and also, even as an epidemiologist, there is not going to be an end in a pandemic without immunisation. This is just plain simple. I said it before, I say it again. We cannot end a pandemic that affects the entire world without some form of immunisation. So the vaccine they may not be as effective, yes, we agree with you on that one.
Loza
They're working on it.
Jocelyne
We're working on that. They're working on it. What we can do, what you can do on your side is make sure you make well-informed decisions and that you understand that not everyone is out there trying to get you and kill you. Now, we have very rigorous procedures to trials. They're critical.
Loza
Very strict. Because, you know, like, remember, these companies are getting sued. They are scared of getting sued. They also have to make a lot of safety checks because if you get a bad name in the industry, you're finished. You're finished.
Jocelyne
And that's why I understand that. Yes. In the past, it hasn't been the case, but times have changed. Yeah. We still do experience medical racism. I understand that because I’ve experienced it myself. But in terms of science and something that is affecting the whole entire world, think about it.
Loza
You get what I mean? Yeah. No, I agree with you. I agree with you.
Edna
So I wonder guys, what do you think we could be doing better in terms of actually like addressing the vaccine hesitancy we are seeing. Because 64% is still shocking statistic to me.
Jocelyne
I don't know, Loza do you want to go first?
Loza
I mean it's a hard one. It's a hard one because obviously if there was like an easy fix, it would have been done, right. They would be like, okay. But public engagement is so important. I think, as we've seen, like we've addressed, there is a lot of mistrust of vaccines because of mistrust of healthcare practitioners. So sometimes you know, providing this reliable information from like a place people trust.
Edna
Yeah,
Loza
Right. Really. Like engaging with the community and not coming to them and being like, okay, I'm going to tell you all of this stuff. You have to believe, you have to accept it. But like, you know, answering, people have a lot of questions that go unanswered, answering their concerns, answering their questions, not completely discounting them and saying it's because you don't know research properly. Not everyone has scientific literacy. It's okay. Like, it's not everybody that's going to study science.
Jocelyne
It's not their expertise.
Loza
And it's the responsibility of people, it's the responsibility of the government and pharmaceutical companies to communicate their results without all the medical jargon. Because ain't nobody trying to read a research paper about the clinical trials that Pfizer. Do you get what I mean? Yeah. I think that's one big thing.
And another thing, when it comes to ridiculing, at least, okay, so me, I only know Switzerland. But when I say public engagement, there was a lot of hesitancy in Switzerland. And the government's approach to me is a little questionable. One of their public engagements was releasing a bunch of ads that showed people doing, like, really stupid things, like eating tide pods or whatever and saying like, oh, Mark will eat a tide pod, but he won't get the vaccine. He's dumb. And for me, it's kind of like stroking your ego of like, me, I know the unlike and these stupid people, it's going to alienate people even more. It's bad..
Jocelyne
Yes. And just to echo what you said, Loza. I think that is the problem. The moment we start bashing people that are vaccine hesitant, that's when they will have more and more reason to come to be against this vaccine.
Loza
Absolutely.
Jocelyne
And if you're trying to tackle vaccine hesitancy with emotion, it's never going to work.
Loza
Right.
Jocelyne
Give them the science. Give them the information. Answer the questions.
Loza
Answer the questions
Jocelyne
You making them feel bad and stupid. It's not going to help.
Loza
Right. Because I often hear people being like, believe in the science. You don't believe in science. You're meant to question science to begin with. Let people question it.
Edna
Yeah. And I feel like in the UK as well. I don't know if you guys remember during the pandemic or at least the summer where lockdown was first eased, and then there were suddenly being like, oh all these young people, they're the going out there
Loza
After giving us the eat out to help out.
Edna
There was again, this whole public health messaging of like, blaming certain people for things that shame you are the one that's causing this. Like, I don't think that's very effective.
Jocelyne
It’s not effective. We're not medical professionals, but as healthcare professionals or healthcare scientists or in fact, the whole global health community, if you're trying to address vaccine hesitancy, before you even speak, ask open-ended questions.
Loza
Right.
Jocelyne
Just let them ask you questions and address because everybody has different concerns. I have people say that I don't think it's necessary. I had people say that, “Why should I get a vaccine if I'm still going to get infected.” I had people say that, “I'm scared of the side effects.” There's so many…
Loza
It's not just one reason. People need to understand that, too.
Edna
Yeah. 100%. You need to really actually understand what people's concerns are. You can't just assume that it's like because they don't know how vaccines work. You can't just assume it's because they don't understand science and you just need to educate them. It's not that, we don't know, we can't tell you what everyone's concern is. You need to go find out.
Loza
Yeah. It's as unique as how many people there are in the world.
Edna
Exactly.
Jocelyne
Yeah. And once we understand that science is very difficult to communicate, science is a very complex, it's very complex. I'm sorry, it's very complex. Immunology is a very very complex subject. But then at the same time, we have that duty to communicate at every single step of the way. Because I've seen that even in a lot of African countries, African countries that have dealt with academics. I'm sorry, I've seen some very good communication there. When I went to Cameroon during the cholera epidemic, I was seeing flyers everywhere about how it works, what current vaccines are available, what treatments are available, literally very very big flyers. And we could also have something very similar because if you have a poster, a flyer, around public transport, whatever they have. Yes they have some hand sanitizer, what do you call it? Symbols. But I'm talking about how specifics information about how vaccines work, basic information that people need to know, and that would help them reduce that fear that they have.
Loza
It’s true.
Edna
I think the other thing to point out is it's not necessarily also like the concerns you address and the message you're going to deliver. You also need to consider who is delivering the message.
Loza
Right.
Edna
Because we see this thing of people who have different levels of trust for different people in their community. I think Loza you were talking about how some people have been told by their church leaders or something that don't go get the vaccine, they're more likely to listen to those Church leaders. Yeah, exactly. Rather than the government.
Loza
Absolutely. Because consistent, the communication is consistent. So they're like, okay, well, listen to this person. Yeah. Engaging with people that like, people, the community trusts is important. Like a random stranger with a lab coat, people are not receptive to them all the time. Not going to lie. And I think it's just important at the end of the day, like my takeaway is I think we just need to stop preaching to the choir. Sometimes we just say the same things that we all agree with. Like people that want to take the vaccine, we just say the same thing over and over again to each other and we say, yeah, like, we know the science we understand and then don't really tackle the root problem. So it just continues. So answer questions.
Edna
My other recommendation, I think, Jocelyne, you touched upon this in terms of involving people at every step of the process. But I think the concern that I guess surprised me a little. Well, it's not really surprising. Is this whole thing of like the vaccine trial, the vaccine was developed so quickly, people were like quite shocked by how quickly it was developed. And maybe for me as well, again, like saying based on my studies where I wasn't as surprised because it's like I knew, for example, that the European Medical Agency, they have emergency authorizations that they can do. Like, they already have processes in place,
Loza
I think for pandemics. Yeah.
Edna
Quickly develop something and they quickly get it to market. Even FDA in America, they have these processes. So I was like, yeah, that's fine to me. But not everyone knows that. Not everyone was involved, or rather, community was not always involved during the clinical trials themselves. People didn't even get the chance then to ask any kind of questions that scientists and people running the clinical trials could have addressed at that stage.
Loza
It’s true. It's such a good idea to really inform people. Okay, this is where we are at and communicate with people, and this is how it's progressing. This is the data at the moment. 100%. Because if you Google how long a vaccine takes to develop right now, you'll get like ten years, fifteen years. So then people are like wait a minute, it came out in a year. What am i thinking
Jocelyne
And I’ve seen that in science, we tend to put communication as, you know, that one thing, you know..(inaudible) is brushed off. It’s almost as important as finding these vaccines. Because there's no point of you creating a vaccine if people are not going to take it.
Loza
That's where it comes down to the end.
Edna
Legit.
Loza
Yeah. What do you have to say to the people, you guys?
Jocelyne
My people. I would say that, again, we're not here to bash anybody. We're here to speak, we’re speaking from a place of love, from a place of research. I have a message for the people and one for the scientists right. Now, for the people saying that science is not all bad and that they're not out here trying to kill you or trying to torment you. We understand that medical racism exists, and we understand that we have been oppressed for so many years, but at the same time, we need vaccines to end
Loza
Take advantage of it.
Jocelyne
Yeah, take advantage of it. And also having that peace of mind. Don't you want to be able to go out knowing that, okay, I have some protection. Protected from this?
Loza
No, honestly, let me be honest. Whenever I called it, I was sick for maybe three days, but I was done. I had some friends that were coughing and dying. And I have a bigger peace of mind just being like, I have some protection.
Jocelyne
Yes. I don't have that fear like I'm going to die from this call because I guess I'm going to.
Edna
No, I completely agree with you there, Jocelyne. I think the main concern for me is with the public engagement. It's not always on the public, us, the public sometimes to actually, you know, just be able to accept things. Like it's completely understandable to me that, you know, no matter what you just put out there into the world, it's not everyone that's going to be ready to just take it up and run with it. You need to be able to address those concerns from the public right from the beginning. Like, make sure you understand your public. If you are in government, if you are in science, if you're in clinical trials, understand the public, the people that are at the end of the day going to take up that vaccine.
Jocelyne
No, sorry. One more thing. Last thing. I've also heard people back, from back home in Cameroon that have said things like, “Oh, it's not a black person problem. It's a white people problem. We don't have it in Cameroon, so we're not going to die from it.” One thing about outbreaks is that they don't discriminate. You may face racism, you may face all this social discrimination, but outbreaks have no barriers. COVID doesn't see colour. COVID affects everybody. Outbreaks have no barriers. It could break into Cameroon right now. It could break into Zim right now. It could break into any African, Asian, Russian, anywhere in the world. It could come for you. So be prepared.
Loza
They don't respect your border. They dont respect your race. The virus does not care. She does note care, she desont see colour. Thank you
Jocelyne
Unfortunately. Let's conclude. Thank you very much for listening to the World Health Investigation podcast. I'm Jocelyne.
Edna
I'm Edna.
Loza
And I'm Loza.
Jocelyne
We are three, young global health professionals and your hosts for the World Health Investigation podcast. Thank you and see you next week.
Loza
See you next week.
Edna
Bye y’all.