Coronaviruses had been a major concern as infectious agents with pandemic-causing potential, years before the COVID-19 pandemic. Advancements in DNA sequencing mechanisms can help us detect pathogens early and study them appropriately. So why were we still not prepared for the COVID-19 pandemic? In this episode we discuss the challenges of pandemic preparedness and evaluate the response to COVID-19 by key players such as national governments and the World Health Organisation. We also reflect on lessons learned and what could be done differently.
This week's case study: South Korea’s response to MERS (2015) versus COVID-19 - https://ourworldindata.org/covid-exemplar-south-korea
If you were Minister of Health in your country during the COVID-19 pandemic, what would you do differently? Share your thoughts with us at worldhealthinvestigation@gmail.com
Enjoyed the episode? Please share and give us a cheeky 5 star review :)
Make sure you follow us on our socials to get our latest updates.
Like what you hear? Please leave a like, subscribe and share.
Additional resources:
Interdisciplinary research in epidemic preparedness and response - https://acmedsci.ac.uk/policy/policy-projects/multidisciplinary-research-in-epidemic-preparedness-and-response-
Bill Gates: The next outbreak? We're not ready - https://youtu.be/6Af6b_wyiwI
South Korea Measures to Reform Na
Follow us on our socials so you don’t miss anything!
Coronaviruses had been a major concern as infectious agents with pandemic-causing potential, years before the COVID-19 pandemic. Advancements in DNA sequencing mechanisms can help us detect pathogens early and study them appropriately. So why were we still not prepared for the COVID-19 pandemic? In this episode we discuss the challenges of pandemic preparedness and evaluate the response to COVID-19 by key players such as national governments and the World Health Organisation. We also reflect on lessons learned and what could be done differently.
This week's case study: South Korea’s response to MERS (2015) versus COVID-19 - https://ourworldindata.org/covid-exemplar-south-korea
If you were Minister of Health in your country during the COVID-19 pandemic, what would you do differently? Share your thoughts with us at worldhealthinvestigation@gmail.com
Enjoyed the episode? Please share and give us a cheeky 5 star review :)
Make sure you follow us on our socials to get our latest updates.
Like what you hear? Please leave a like, subscribe and share.
Additional resources:
Interdisciplinary research in epidemic preparedness and response - https://acmedsci.ac.uk/policy/policy-projects/multidisciplinary-research-in-epidemic-preparedness-and-response-
Bill Gates: The next outbreak? We're not ready - https://youtu.be/6Af6b_wyiwI
South Korea Measures to Reform Na
Follow us on our socials so you don’t miss anything!
Jocelyne: It's very, very important that the public is involved at every single stage of the pandemic. From the moment we hear about the first case, what’s the best way to involve the public? To communicate? How are they going to receive it?
Loza: Can you blame people for having trust issues? Because you know, promises were being made. And I think one thing is when you really engage with the public, like explain, this is an unpredictable virus, this is what we're doing, this is why we're doing it.
Edna: So yeah like Jocelyne said, the terrorism money is there, but where it’s money for PPE? Simple, simple PPE.
Loza: Please, the virus can be a terrorist too.
Jocelyne: Hello globies, welcome to the World Health Investigation. My name is Jocelyne.
Edna: I'm Edna
Loza: And I'm Loza.
Edna: We're three young global health professionals and your hosts for the World Health Investigation podcast.
Loza: Also known as the WHI. We'll be discussing all things global health, and unpacking the most controversial health and social issues
Edna: As well as promoting new wave global health development and equity.
Jocelyne: So ladies, what is the tee in global health today?
Edna: Yes, taking her time
Jocelyne: The tee is, we are both joining live from London.
Loza: Come see graduates. First of all, I just want to say congratulations,
Jocelyne: Adena graduated.
Loza: Everybody, congratulate them
Edna: Thank you, thank you. You know, almost a year later, you know,
Loza: Pandemic didn't stop
Jocelyne: Panoramic.
Loza: Panasonic.
Edna: But yeah, y'all I feel, I feel officially graduated now say I'm a graduate. I can say it with my chest now.
Jocelyne: It feels, it feels official, official. UCL has tied the knot.
Edna: Yeah. Ok I wouldn't say it in that way. It's not that deep. UCL is great, but it's not that deep.
Jocelyne: They said you're going to have a long-term relationship with them as an alumni.
Edna: That's all great and fine. As long as to get my career services,
Jocelyne: as long as you do anyways, what's the real tee.
Edna: I mean, listen, this, this, this graduation has to be delayed for a long time because of the pandemic. Um,
Loza: I'm sick.
Edna: But we must recognize that we need to reflect upon what happened in this pandemic. What have we learned because we cannot continue to go back and forth.
Loza: We can't do this again
Jocelyne: You really want us to talk about this again.
Edna: Yes, again and again, until we learn
Loza: Until we learn
Jocelyne: First it was mental health, this pandemic we have accepted it. It has finished us. It has killed us. Now let's move on.
Edna: No, no, that will not work. We got into this situation because we continue to have that mindset of like, well, the pandemic happened now it's in the past. Let's get back to normal.
Jocelyne: Let's get back to normal.
Edna: And then we are not prepapred for the next one.
Ladies and gentlemen, today were talking about like top two lessons from the pandemic. Like what, what, what can we learn? What are some lessons learned in this pandemic?
There is a lot that can be said.
A lot went wrong. And in some places, a lot went right. So,
but before we even get into
that, I wanted to just ask you guys just let's begin at the level of you personally.
Did you feel like you were actually prepared for a pandemic? Like when that news broke, would you say yeah. Yeah. I felt prepared for a pandemic.
Jocelyne: Oh yes. I had my helmet on.
Loza: I was just going to say, I had my mask ready
Three packs. No, I saw it coming obviously. Me I'm that's so Raven,
Edna: You guys have studied biomedicine, virology. We've all studied that. So we have an idea of like, yes, things pandemics can just come, zoonosis diseases can just jump from animals to humans all the time. We're aware of these things. Yeah. But still, did you think you like in your lifetime you'd see a pandemic?
Jocelyne: No, honestly, no, not even, no. I first, when I had COVID, I said, it's not to say that the flu is not important. We had this, I don't know. I saw it on social media channels as well. Cause we anything about it. We just heard flu like symptoms. So like flu like symptoms or not small, small runny nose, small, small cough.
And then for a few days, just to spice things up and that's about it, you don't
die from it. So it's calm little did I know miss Rona is an RNA virus and she replicates really fast,
really, really fast.
And I remember that my lecture is on, oh, we are very concerned. It's going to affcet the entire world. We're all going to someone like, no, we're not, it's not going to be a problem. We've got to control.
We've dealt with things before we've just had Ebola. Like this was when Ebola had just, think there was an Ebola epidemic in 2019 and yeah, there was outbreak dealt with worse. So small, small flu will do not disturb us. Whereas others were like, no, this replicates really fast. It's not like the flu it's different. So there were different, they were opposing opinions, very, very opposing opinions.
And then people were like, oh, in Africa as well. Um, they're going to be suffering. Yeah. They said we're going to die.
Loza: Devastation, millions of deaths. We will see
Jocelyne: Don't worry about us, don't worry about Africa. So that was my initial outlook. I would say I was more concerned about why people were just pointing fingers at the Africa.
That was more, that was my concern. I wasn't necessarily prepared. I was. But why yeah. Yeah, that was just my outlook. Um,
Loza: yes or no, like maybe it's me feeling like the main character, but I did, I felt in my life I would experience a pandemic. Only beacuse.. and please don't blame me for this, but I didn't bring this on. I didn't think it would be this bad, but why I thought it is because I remember I used to watch lectures and I still like study. Cause I liked viruses. I used to study it and people would always say, it's very likely we will have an airborne. Virus that will cause a pandemic. It was, it was repeated all the time.
So for me, it was like, it's only a matter of time. It's probably going to happen. I always assumed it would be an influenza virus. I thought we'd just get another flu. I didn't think it would be Ms. Corona that would come for us. Um, but then when it actually hits and we were hearing about this new Corona virus.
Me I didn't take us seriously. Why are people stressed? I don't even see people like at the gym with like gloves and stuff. And I'd be like, like, relax. It's not a deep, um, because the way I saw it too, I had learned, I had just learned about MERS and SARS. And so to me, I was like, okay, it's MERS and SARS part three. And the previous two. Yeah, they had like outbreaks, but they didn't cause a full blown pandemic. So I thought they would just die out.
I thought this one would also die out my. My lecturers also did not take it seriously. They said, y'all, you'll be fine. School isn't going to close. Everything will be fine. No, it was just like wash your hands. Everything will be okay. So, um, when it actually hits and the WHO declared it a pandemic, but then the next week everything was shut and then we were in lockdown and it was
all happening.
I was like, whoa,
Jocelyne: It went on a skew skew skew in two seconds.
Loza: One night I was at your birthday Jocelyne the next week I was at home and locked down for the next two years of my life. So yeah.
Jocelyne: And I remember at that time as well, I was revising for my virology exam. And I was reading that the, that they identified a SARS-CoV-2 strain in 2013, and someone did that there was speculation that there would be an airborne pandemic happening by the Corona.
So I don't know. Uh, it's a bit concerning how it was 95% similar to the, the SARS-CoV-2 that we have today. That was a bit shocking.
Edna: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I, I feel exactly the same way as you all. Like Loza I love what you brought up about like the lockdowns and how quickly you just like went from zero to a hundred because yeah, I was
also feeling like, okay.
New infectious disease. Okay. Okay. Let's let, let's see how it goes.
Let's not be too worried, if flu happens every year. So, you know, I won't be too concerned yet. I think also the side of the scientist, where I was like, I wouldn't like raise alarms too much yet, but. I would never say, even though I was aware of like the virology, that it's an RNA virus and what we can expect and the variants of the mutation, then let's say I was prepared to be in lockdown.
I would never say I was prepared to be wearing masks everywhere. That's the part I would say. I was like, whoa,
Jocelyne: um, Globies for those who don't know an RNA virus is a ribo nucleic acid virus. It doesn't have to strands and let's just stay it replicates a lot faster.
Loza: Yeah. So it doesn't have like, you know how we have DNA, we have two strands of genetic material. They have one. So they're even quicker
at replicating that they have,
Edna: they quick at replicating and they don't have like the same sorts of proofing mechanism that we as humans have, like, you know, our DNA replicates as well, our cells replicate, but then we have some sort of like, you know, proofing mechanism, everything.
Okay, exactly. And just copied this the right way and mutations and mistakes, shall we say? But then with RNA viruses, for example, they're replicating very fast. Number one, number two, they don't have that fact checking mechanism necessarily. So they just go say,
Jocelyne: just,
Loza: that's why, that's why we have the variants, because they'd just be areplicated, replicating free-flowing mutation, mutation mutation.
We have Omarion we have exactly like,
Edna: even right now, like, I don't even know. There's like hundreds of strains looks like Kofi that we have right now. Like just the big ones that don't have.
the ones of concern, but there's hundreds of them. Um, but yeah, no, but okay. Then she just like move on from that. Personally, you guys, no one prepared for this pandemic. I think that's fine. That's cool. That's fair. But do you expect your government, wherever your governments, whether sorts of lend UK to be prepared for the pandemic?
Are you like, okay, me personally, I may not be prepared, but my government should
Jocelyne: be yes. Yes. The campaign you elicit as a leader, you're supposed to protect your people so preparedness
Edna: and it's true. Wait, sorry. It cut off for a little bit there for us online. I said, what are you doing?
Jocelyne: So, what are you doing?
Edna: It is your duty. That's it? Okay. Yeah. No, a hundred percent. I'm glad. Okay. We're all on the same page here. Okay. We're not saying pandemic preparedness as for all of us here. I
Jocelyne: mean, as a normal
person, if I'm here, I decided to I'm a construction worker. Why is it, what should I be prepared? I
Loza: said, but what am I
Jocelyne: going to do? Be prepared to have the babies. If I wanted to
Edna: exit exactly. Is there really a way for us to prepare for an outbreak of any kind, not really, we don't have control over diseases.
We can not dictate when spillover events happen. And so that's when you know, diseases can jump from animals to humans. We have no control of that, but what we can control is, you know, we can do some damage control. We can add these, prepare to prevent. You know, large-scale deaths and all these
Jocelyne: panoramic and so like
Edna: green.
Jocelyne: So yeah, like one of you
Edna: mentioned even before, COVID where we had, we knew of Corona viruses sites, where were there was the famous bill gates talk where he said, I have the quote here. If anything kills over 10 million people in the next few decades, it's most likely to be a highly infectious virus rather than a war.
I mean, this will happen
Jocelyne: somewhere to happen at the same time. But anyway, that's exactly,
Edna: that's a different thing right there. Um, so yeah, again, it's just that question of like, okay, we, you, all of these things, as scientists, as governments, you are aware of all these different things, but why are you still not prepared? For a pandemic.
And so I thought we will do an exercise just to put ourselves in the mindset of many people who will have to make these decisions. Imagine, let's say you were held in your respective country
Jocelyne: today,
Edna: you know, I don't know if you ever take that away from me, but today I will be
Jocelyne: upon yourself. If I call you switch, now you have to say, yes, yes, I am the national,
Edna: not just imagined this scenario, or you've been given the breakdown of like, yo there's these cases of this infectious disease airborne. We think coming from in China, you've been given the breakdown or the phone call, whatever it was, the whole situation. Let's uh, what would be like your top worry? Like what's one of the first things you're worried about.
Like one of the first few things you're worried about when you're told that there's this new infectious disease coming out.
Jocelyne: When you told me infectious disease, I had this, the teacher called Richard Mille, talked to Richard Mille. He said transmission. And I say transmission. My first concern is transmission, especially with an irony virus.
So if I hear that. That is a, it's an epidemic already. Or we just have our cases.
Edna: We're hearing about cases, potentially a pandemic. We don't
Jocelyne: know, we don't know we're hearing about. So the first thing I'd want to do is stop transmission. And that would be in this case because it's COVID and it's the respiratory virus.
And so facilitating the cases, not on that, downplaying it as we did, I think that the countries that have done very well and they have managed to, to contain the virus very effectively are people that were, uh, country-style that had very rapid, very rapid response. So I think in this case, I would prioritize making sure that they're self fascinating and that we're taking, um, November not look down originally, but, you know, restrictions, but social, social restrictions, social, social distancing, and stuff like that.
Yeah.
Edna: Yeah. Okay. That's a great point because I think that's a really pointing to the first thing you need to be considering in pandemic preparedness. I understand the virus itself understand the dynamics of economics so that you can make a very well informed policy decision on what's restrictions with advice for people.
Jocelyne: And just that knowing my country come a room, we don't have the capacity for that big. We don't have the capacity for four, for four. Um, we don't have the healthcare burdens are very, quite a lot. And the public health system, we are trying our very, very best. Okay. So I wouldn't want it to. To grow. I wouldn't want it to spread.
I wouldn't want that dissemination going on. So prioritizing prevention as much as possible and as much, um, stakeholder involvement, like there are different territories that are non-governmental organizations that are involved as well. So I'll get different stakeholders, not just within public health, but the health care sector, social, social sector as well to get everyone involved coming together ASAP to have the union unanimous, unanimous standpoint.
Edna: Yeah.
Loza: Come and see minister of health. Jeez. Where are you? And you know, this is why ministers of health, I believe, should be people with health backgrounds because these not Hong Kong and them
Jocelyne: where they, sorry. Okay. Sorry. Just
Edna: kidding.
Loza: But I'm sorry, but like, you're able to be like, this is this kind of virus.
This is how I expect it to replicate. You're able to even speak to the scientists, understand where they're coming from and to make recommendations. Some of these people are coming from finance
Jocelyne: and everything they don't know. And they're giving random advice, advice, and people don't understand. You don't understand it.
Loza: That's what, I'm an advocate. If you're a minister of health, please have health
Edna: backgrounds. Yeah, no, I think you guys also pointing out to like a key issue here with that. We were seeing with the pandemic is a lot of scientists, a lot of people who are like epidemiologists doctors who understand the science, like the keepers of this, like answering your phone things for, for example, why to, for his life all the time, because it's just like, there is the science of this political stuff that comes with.
The scientists are considered like the virus itself, the dynamics, but we also, politicians are like, okay, what is this going to mean for the economy?
so there's always that password, that one screen on the science, what the science wants versus like the policy, the political side of it, or so that was really, I would say
Jocelyne: politician wants to make the people happy. That's their job.
yeah.
Loza: That's where the conflict is. And it is easier to, it's easier to say solve it than actually applying it and relate to be honest. Um, and I think that is, yeah. For if I was, it was me, that was minister of health. The PPO. If I heard this, first of all, I would leave. I'd say
luck safe. Um, no, but for real, I think
Jocelyne: just please. This is my personal
Loza: is jobs are hard. Um, for real, um, for Ethiopia, like I would be concerned on top of. Understanding the spreading, I wouldn't, obviously there's already a high burden of infections in Ethiopia. I don't want a new one to be added, but, um, for me also is social security. So from, if I'm thinking about a pandemic, I know there might be lockdowns.
Eventually there might be restrictions on people's work and there's a really high informal sector in Ethiopia. So I would think like, okay, how am I going to protect these people? If their livelihoods are also going to be affected by pandemic restrictions, how am I going to give them, how am I going to access them and provide them with some kind of like security so that they don't go out and, you know, um, increased transmissions and risk their lives.
Um, On top of probably like in the early times before, because you know, at the beginning, people didn't understand exactly how, um, COVID spread or exactly like how deadly it was. So I would also be very strict on like testing and contact tracing anybody that traveled to that country. I think that would, uh,
Jocelyne: a lot of my attention would be, yeah.
Yes. I agree with you. I think with testing, as it goes down to their transmission, like trunk, transmission, as POS as much, sorry, stopping transmission as much as possible. And the most effective way to do that is to get people tested and having effective tests as well, with high sensitivity and specificity.
So, you know, the number of. Uh, false positives. And what what's the what's the, I'm not going to
Loza: I was talking about it
Edna: yesterday to
Jocelyne: keep the false negatives. Yeah. You
Loza: want the test to be specific enough to detect, um, like the correct antigens and, and you want it to be sensitive enough so that it doesn't miss
Jocelyne: any potential potential. Do you want it to be sent through enough to miss, to not miss out on any positive case specific or not?
Ms.
um, yeah, the spiral early in very, very early stage, because at the moment, because I remember when Colt, when we heard about, uh, cool bait south coast too, we just knew that it was, uh, it was, uh, pneumonia, uh, um, or known from on with acute. I think it was initially early stage. It was caught pneumonia with unknown etiology.
That's all we,
Loza: we are before they even knew about virus. It was, we
Jocelyne: didn't know why parents had walked in on anything. So the first thing is get the PCRs, get the testing done and preventing that transmission. If not gets done very war at the beginning of. At the early stages that we won't have to get later stages.
Oh, the healthcare burden, the health supplier, the PPE, all those different things. Yeah.
Loza: Right. We could have been saved dependent. All
Edna: of this has done early, but exactly what I do like about like, one thing that you mentioned was like the social security, because it is like, yes, you are a minister of health and welfare.
This is a public health emergency, but you can ignore the fact that, you know, you have to consider like the economic impact, like even for like on an individual level, like down to a household, like, okay, what does this mean for people where there's only one person in the household who works in now, I'm attending all of them to like see home.
They have incentive to be working at home.
Jocelyne: Is that,
Edna: and then people just
Loza: starve to death. Uh, if they don't complain,
Jocelyne: like I got to stay at home alone, like I have to feed my four children. How am I going to do that?
Edna: So, yeah, I love both of those answers. The only thing I would add. Okay. Like now if I come in from like a
if it was me personally, it was Ashley, new south health, I would say, for example, I also have my background from Zimbabwe where let's say I was entering like the 2008 cholera outbreak. You know, that I have an idea of what happens during like some kind of like infectious disease outbreak and what will be required from the public.
What's the public involvement there. And so I'm not gonna lie if I was like minister of health in Switzerland. Yes. All of these points that you guys have brought up would be like priority list things, but like a personal worry would be like, Hmm, how am I going to convince this population to adhere to these restrictions?
And please
Jocelyne: Huh you were
Edna: injection
Jocelyne: to my body. They say.
Edna: Exactly. So I think, because I know how the population over here can be, this is not the same, like, uh, let's say like, people here are not as used to not having to sacrifice certain. Yeah.
Jocelyne: Like it probably kills emergency
Edna: patients, disease outbreak. That would be my top concern of like, this is you for people.
They may not be as responsive as you would want. So I'll be worried about like, okay, how am I going to get my public to like, align with what we need them to
Loza: do? That's a very good point. I think also a lot of these countries, they did underestimate it at all. They said, oh no, no, it's just a lot of infection.
We're above this where Europe, we have to really, we have the capacity. Well, the capacity was tested, but, um, yeah, definitely convincing the population. Like all of this can get you to like, you need to
Jocelyne: comply.
It's interesting in our responses are different. Like, because we know, I think when it comes to pandemic response and preparedness, you need to understand population as well. It's counter has a different population. You need to know the history of the population as well. How they handled peers, pandemics and how the public has responded.
Yeah. Because people don't, they don't take Mr. . Why are you
Loza: coming from Switzerland so much? And you're one keeping doing
Jocelyne: the same to them because I see people protesting against restrictions to America. I'm not sticking off.
So what I can ruin, like people options, surprisingly, they don't mind taking the vaccine. They don't mind like was compliant to, oh, when
Loza: I went to Ethiopia, that is the most compliance I saw. Like that is the most mask wearing that I saw,
Edna: honestly, even like right now as we're talking. Okay. This is like March 20, 22, right.
A lot of places in Europe, but not like relaxing restrictions a lot. But my dad was just like Zen right now. And he said, it is still everywhere. You cannot go. If you don't have a mask, they're not compromising with you. They're like, you can't come in everywhere. It is still happy. They're still, you know, where's because
Loza: these countries know how to deal with infections properly.
Like in patches, they understand the
Edna: gravity. Yeah. It is understood. But like joking, like you're saying you need to pandemic preparedness. There's no one formula there's no one country in the world can follow. It needs to be adapted to the context of your country and to, you know,
Jocelyne: the population, the population history.
Yeah.
Edna: But overall, yeah, I would say like, in terms of like, we understand that it can be hard to just prepare for a pandemic because. On a personal level. There's things that I just saw out of your control, but on a government level, they have to consider all these different things. Like how are we best going to coordinate?
Like loads are brought up with a social security, like so that we minimize economic impacts for people. What sort of policies or like restrictions are we going to introduce that are best suited to actually address the disease that we're dealing with here? Like you brought up Jocelyn, there's going to be research and development required because it's like, it's a new thing.
We don't understand it completely. We need to, I need to be able to know how best to respond and understand the virus a bit more. I need to start thinking about sheet metal. We need to start thinking about a vaccine. So there's all of that that needs to prepare your child. And then the last thing, and I was usually pushed to the bottom is the community engagement engagement.
Make sure that your public will be ready to receive these restrictions you're taking with them effectively about. This is the virus. This is what happens. This is what you need to do. These are the symptoms, you know, there's that whole like, you know, health promotion,
preparing for a pandemic and to actually enforce your test, stuff like that, to just financing of it all is what was the
Jocelyne: PPE, the money for?
Edna: And that, yeah,
Loza: that was a big challenge at first. Remember, because there was like, there were more masks shortages. So we were being told actually don't buy masks because the hospitals meet them because there was no financing at the beginning.
So have,
Edna: yeah.
Jocelyne: And just the point about community engagement in one group with EPOS. Now, say that again.
It's very, very important that the public is in both every single stage from the moment we have on the first case, what's the best way to involve the parents communicating with how are they going to receive it? Because we feel, because I remember we call it, there was so many misconceptions on the very beginning, which caused all sorts of conspiracy theories.
People didn't want a wider mass, but they want to stop, but not did not want to stuff as at all, because initially it was two weeks and it was a month and it was a long time and you give people false hope. And you gave people, you got people looking forward to something and then gallons changed eventually.
So you have to be very honest about, okay. From the get-go is what we're currently dealing with. Things may change. This is what may happen, but don't tell people that they're going to be out in two weeks and then do eat, eat out, to eat out, to, to help out, come back and impose posts, social distance lockdown in the middle of Christmas.
It doesn't make any sense. Like that's why there was so much public mistrust with the government.
Loza: No. Yeah. Can you blame people for having trust issues because you know, promises were being made. And I think one thing is when you really engage with the public, like explain, this is an unpredictable virus, this is what we're doing.
This is why we're doing it. But if you're saying, oh, okay, we're going to put you on lockdown for three weeks. But then after that you'll have a Christmas. And then on Christmas, it's like, no, that's canceled. So after that, we're going to do this. And it continues. I mean, I was losing my mind last year because I didn't even know what direction we were going to go.
Jocelyne: Yeah. Cause I even took this poll back on. If I did, I did like a small post on Instagram where I asked what they think, um, why do we take their vaccine and stuff? And they said that. So scientists and the government don't seem like it know what you're doing.
And I said, you see,
Edna: was really
Loza: track what was being communicated to people. It really does look like they don't know what they're doing.
Edna: That's why they're conflicting each other. Sorry. Yeah, I think we always come back to this point and we have in various episodes of like, let's say for us, we come from the science background, we can see these things happening and we'd be able to.
Almost understand the side of the scientist, where there's like a lot of uncertainty, they cannot communicate everything. So I started, you're like, yay, look, dad, we're going to prevent 1000 deaths for sure. For sure. That's just not how science works. No, the court, it's not just about the viruses. It's not just about public, just science in general.
And so we may be able to understand that, but. Does the, do the people in your governments who make decisions, understand that? Can you break it down to them effectively? How are they then going to take that information? They may hear you will get information, but they will not use it at all as we see. So again, you also see that on the public side, there'll be the, this disconnect between, okay, the scientists are saying this, the government is not seeing this last week.
Jocelyne: You know, that's what they said, this thing, why should I listen to them? Let me just do my,
Edna: and I listened to them. So I think it goes back to an issue of like, again, this is work that needs to go into before a pandemic happens, which is gaining trust from your public. And that just doesn't come from, you know, suddenly
Jocelyne: telling, I don't know, like, and, and, and, and that's why we understand that science doesn't have all the answers, but the key is like, even in communication, like when you communicate with people, you need to tell them what's happening.
Even if you don't know, we don't know currently, we don't know, but this is what we're doing and see it without using the big buzz words. And then put in the language of a five-year old and saying, this is what we're currently doing. We're calling it, replicating this DNA and this and this and the, explain the protein stuff also what you're currently doing and tell them, this is why we have this vaccine and wings news and stuff.
That's what, that was much mistrust because they didn't, people, people saw the main late people. Fuck. They understood the science better
Edna: than the sciences,
Loza: how it was being
Edna: relayed to them. Yeah. Our percent we can move and continue to stress this point even more. But I guess, um, just to wrap up, um, in terms of like, yes, there's the site.
The government and what the government can do to prepare, but there's a little soul and let us not forget
Jocelyne: our global international viewers.
Edna: like, okay, you can again, take yourself back to early pandemic days, early, really pandemic days. I personally am not going to lie once expecting who to be like coordinates to me. Like
Jocelyne: I said, finally,
Edna: the w H or that I'd be interested in. Can you get it's time to shine? I know this is what the WHR has been created for.
And for years when we don't have pandemics or we don't have, uh, you know, diseases that affect like European countries, you know, they're not taking us seriously, but now I'm like finally the who spotlighted everything. That's always seeing that these meetings can finally be proven. Correct. So I had that expectation for who, I don't know if you guys, what expectations did you have for them?
Like what their role would be in
Jocelyne: this pandemic? I'm not going to lie. I must your energy at the beginning. When I say I must do. I initially when they didn't say anything. No, there's nothing. The moment that you said
so that's how much impact they can't. They give guidelines. Yeah. But when you hit the w two has declared that this is a public health emergency and it was a quick, quick, quick, quick
left or right. So I think, I don't want to, I think, I I'm wondering, I'm gonna just follow up on a bunch of notes. Yeah. Because with the hedge fund in one pandemic, the response was a lot slower. I think there was, it started off around, was he, what was he.
Yeah. Yeah. I was a child. I don't know. They started off style off. Um, I think it started off, around, around same time November, December, but the reporting actually happened months, months later, once a month later, the w even notified the first case months later, this is the first clarification in this pandemic was a week later.
So, I mean, once we can batch them, we can batch them and say, oh yeah, there was no. They took some time because they underestimated them. But I think in comparison to a previous pandemic that happened, they did learn a little. Yeah.
Loza: Yeah. I think, um, we see the WHS like this very powerful, you know, global health institution, but like what's important to remember is the W2 is only as powerful or as strong as the member countries will allow it to be.
So if member countries are not cooperating, the W2 can only do so much there. I mean, there are still written. So even in terms of like, you know, declaring some people say, why did they wait so long to declare the pandemic? There are certain definitions that it has to fulfill for it to be coded pandemic.
It can just call it a pandemic five countries. Um, they say, you know, why didn't they act sooner? Why didn't they didn't do this? But like, I mean, do we not remember the us was trying to pull out of the who because of like, you know, how they were addressing the pandemic because they claimed the us was too nice to check.
I mean, it was still nice to China countries also tried to impose their political beliefs on the organization. And, um, and the organization relies on funding from state countries. Like the U
Edna: S is one of
Loza: who, you know what I mean? So like, it's only as powerful as these big countries are. So I did. Yeah. I didn't think they would change too much if the countries did
Edna: let them shine.
Yeah. A hundred percent. I agree. I think the who and even tenders themselves,
It can be a difficult position to be in exactly for the points that you guys made, because that does not forget
Jocelyne: me. If I was China already, I would be shaking in my boots. If I detected,
Edna: if I
Jocelyne: was in China, I'm not saying this is what China did. I would say
it might detect some
Edna: infectious disease or something. Obviously I'm shaking my economic talks. I'm like, I suddenly bounced that I have another outbreak or something because China had SARS before they also had murders. And that had huge impact on tourism as well.
Jocelyne: So not again, you don't
Edna: want this
Jocelyne: to happen again.
So obviously, you know, obviously at the time Trump was calling it.
Oh, yeah,
I've just detected something like this.
Edna: Okay, let me just go up and fix my front outgrow. And I'll tell who I'll go in on nouns. And then, you know, who then also has to look at it and be like, okay, now what's going on in this situation, they have to do their own investigations that are done. USA is also Oakland here with their own political agenda.
And they're hearing of these whispers of some new infectious disease what's going on there.
Jocelyne: 100 virus. There was so many questions. Us tried to put the sense from scientists in China and the Chinese became equated the virus from the bats and then the past I was.
Edna: And I think I agree with you Justine, like when we actually compare like the WHR response, like from historic times, like even with Ebola and how quickly they respond in terms of saying like declaring that this is a public counselor and be like, no, actually escalating it to what, this is a pandemic now.
They were much faster
Jocelyne: than this time. Yeah. That we can give, we could complete,
they make the seamless payment, they made us a few mistakes, but you know, he would come by, she would come back from not everyday fashion. Now let's also appreciate, well, we should
Edna: do. Is there anything we do wish the, who would have. Done a little bit more. Is there any other area we feel like they should have shined a little bit more?
Jocelyne: Hm.
Loza: Showing a little bit more. I mean, what can they do first of all, they don't have any binding, um, treaties at the moment to like regulate countries responses, right. To pandemics. So for me, like I would have loved for the W2 to have the power to regulate country's responses to the pandemic. So of that is shutting borders.
You know, they announced, okay, this, this, this criteria is met. This is how you should respond. If it's testing, if this there's, this criteria is met, this is how you should respond in terms of diagnostic sharing diagnostics, um, PPE vaccines, you know, actually. Putting binding laws. So that countries would actually properly be, um, what is it?
Coordinated and accountable, like coordinated actions and accountability. Because what we saw during this pandemic, what was frustrating for me was one country over here would be doing one thing and the other one would be doing the opposite. And they'd all be going in different directions. They'd be reacting.
They would not be necessarily trying to prevent. It would be, you know, new Barron's comes to react, to close their borders. It's too late.
Jocelyne: South African variance.
Loza: Um, even the Delta variant, like, I mean, it's like David repeat the same mistake. So for me, just having like binding laws that hold countries accountable so that they have coordinated responses, that would have been ideal. But the moment that we were talking in 2020, the WTO did not have that power.
Jocelyne: So the show was just providing guidelines. And that's you say, please
Loza: do this, please don't do this, but no, thanks.
Edna: That's what I mean. When I say for me, I had that expectation of a temporary. Early on in the pandemic to be able to like step up and be that person. Cause I feel like that is really key to their role, similar to other UN agencies, like international labor organization, who, you know, I think the treaty around like tobacco, like that's the only treating we have laws.
I think you're the one who knows.
Loza: Yeah. And then I chose it's like the international health something, but yeah.
Jocelyne: Yeah. We don't
Edna: have that many Peters because it is very hard to get them into, you know, the
countries
Jocelyne: to
Edna: need to put the energy into that is something where like the w yeah. Why should there be an early on like a considered a hundred percent,
Jocelyne: but then at the time I can't just, we're doing completely different things. Yeah.
Loza: And it goes both ways though. Cause it definitely can't do anything unless the countries agree.
Like they're the ones that vote you get, I mean, not. Yeah.
Jocelyne: When the U S was giving the WHL attitudes,
there was a lot happening at the same time. And then there was like, there was the, no, go into that. I mean, just don't mind
Edna: to be fair, actually. It's like, yeah, we don't, we actually don't know what was going on at the back. They could have been pushing efforts like this for like two days or whatever. And it's only now getting an announcement of like, you know, I mean,
Loza: there were like people that suggested way back, you know, after we should probably fix some of these doublets and give it a bit more power to hold countries accountable in case there's another outbreak and countries were like, no, thank you.
That's
Edna: very
Jocelyne: good. And we know the bureaucracy that goes into a global house and public health, particularly emergencies. So fast.
In a pandemic, if I'm the niece preparedness. Yeah. Pregnancy, particularly when it comes to that standard operating procedures, SOP, when it comes to pandemic preparedness. I don't think that I don't think that that was not the temperature's responsibility, but I don't think a lot of countries had that. So in this particular scenario, it was, it was almost like they just had the weirdest reacting.
It was truly, there was some kind of standardized procedure. Okay. This is what happens and then this, and then we'll notify the notified. Yeah. And then, then we advise the hiking club. Then we say this, then we say that a clear plan. There was no clear plan.
Loza: Yeah, exactly. It was too late, but by the time COVID came, it was too late to exactly doing, oh, let's prepare.
Edna: You're not prepared. Yeah, exactly. If you're not prepared to just not be prepared. I mean, in the interest of time, like, okay, I'll quickly mention, for example, Korea, South Korea, that was a country that was. You know, we saw early on in the pandemic, very responsive and people were just like clapping hands for South Korea because they're very good in terms of like controlling, like at the early stages.
And I think the key thing there to highlight is that it's because South Korea to. They put in the work to learn from previous experiences rather
Jocelyne: than just closing their borders. Yeah.
Edna: Rather than just closing their borders, but just explain the
Jocelyne: He did. Yeah.
Edna: So they had like, for example, a immerse outbreak in 2015 and like not handle this as best as they could do for example. And I mean, I have some statistics here, but
Jocelyne: then let's build the T
like the Marines I'll break
Edna: the in 2015 in results in like 17,000 suspected cases. And they were like 38. So
Jocelyne: it doesn't seem like much, but then
Edna: it over like the six month where that pandemic took place, the Korean government, south Korean government lost an estimated like 2.6 billion in tourism revenue.
Um, and they spent like almost 1 billion us dollars on diagnosis treatment. Right. Parts of their response. Right. So what I liked is, as I was reading about South Korea is that 2015 after that, um, Maria's awkward. They set up these 48 reforms and, you know, I can provide a link to where they either quite interesting read, but they set up this 48, like performance of like, okay, this is what we need to do to prepare.
And some of the stuff that could be like, okay, we need more infection, control staff and isolation units. We need to expand our outbreak simulations and PPE training. We need to have better collaboration between like medical centers and local governments. You know, they set this out, this is what needs to be done and think they actually did it.
Y'all and they guess what? By code time. Cause we came to a prepared come and see, you know, so I think like Justin you're saying now with like the travel bands. So again, because for example, And obviously when cases were first reported for Mohan, some countries, the first response is, you know, travel back bad, anyone coming in from one hand, anyone coming in from China, that's not even, they approached that South Korea to South Korea.
I liked with what, who had always like recommended, which was, you know, you track these people, you check them at the border, you get them to self isolate, but there's no need to actually impose a travel ban. And that was what South Korea intimated. And there were still able to control the, the, the, the epidemic, the outbreak pretty well early on the days.
So that just goes to show that it's like, you prepare, you be ready to face the next challenge. You don't do what everyone else was doing with these old travel bands and dah, dah dah, which in the end work out that well,
Jocelyne: when we heard that the ESOP, oftentimes everyone was concerned. They had, they initially started with a lot of cases, but eventually.
Comp in comparison to the United Kingdom and the us and Russia and India, I'm sorry. The Turner did a lot better. And they started off with, you know, a lot of cases, but with time they acted WIC. They acted really quick, particularly exploiting the scientific community, the scientific expertise, the health professionals, everybody came together in China and they did it quick.
And they had, I remember when he was wasn't one Hyundai in, they had a lockdown in 100 particular, not necessarily in the whole country, whole country, they had a no-call lockdowns, which was effective. And I think towards the end of the pandemic as well, um, it's funny, it's not always message to have national lockdowns that depends on your country, but in that case, it worked really well.
So yeah, closing. Closing your borders. It's not always the first
Edna: exact key.
Now she just took a bottle. Okay. We've already mentioned quite a number of points, but like what can we do better in terms of pandemic preparedness? Anything else that we can do better with Reggie kind of touched on you need better coordination in terms of like how you're communicating with the public.
So you just don't look like headless chickens running around
Jocelyne: don't look like headless chickens running around.
Edna: Invest a little bit more now public engagement, like we said, to really address that mistrust. So, I mean, any other additional points from you guys in terms of like, what can we do better in terms of,
Jocelyne: um, I'm stressing when the SOP stress, hi, you know how you can highlight something on the line? It's stress on the SOP, because when it comes to pandemic preparedness, you can combine it with three different approaches, right?
You can have to number one, the economic factor, like the economic impact of the pandemic on people. So that's the first bit of government would think about how it's going to affect the economy, particularly like providing, um, um, financial incentive to vulnerable people and people from liquidity groups.
That's one thing. Then there is actually tracking the virus. Coming up with healthcare, um, solutions when we advice from right. There's that, and then there's the actual pandemic is so like the national gallons and gallons and the restrictions and stuff like that. These are three different approaches. All of these come hand in hand altogether.
We doesn't even, they have just because you prioritize a us plant that prioritize the economy doesn't mean that you automatically say, okay, now let's us all to slice again tomorrow and then change the lockdown rules. It's it's counter intuitive. It is counterproductive. So I think that if they, if the standard operating procedures based on these three different, um, aspects, and also based on control, match, factoring testing control, implementation altogether, that would be much better.
That would make, I think that would make quite a significant difference in how we respond to this.
Loza: No, I like that. I do. I like the idea of like things that are standard and then you know what to do instead of again, being headless chickens. Um, I just want to highlight, like, I just, um, I want us to learn from this one, please. Let's not do this again. Um, I think we were dragging the who, but now they're trying to, I mean, they're meeting to propose a new treaty for pandemic preparedness.
Now I don't know what they're going to put in there. Um, cause the rushes and the Americans are fighting them. I don't know if they don't want one, but, um, when we look at like, okay, things like that treaties, like I would, I would advise for like more global cooperation, um, and more coordination so that like everyone is kind of going in the same direction so that we can have the best outcome.
Um, and because this is not like the, I doubt this is the only spillover event that's gonna happen in our life. Like there, there could be another, you know, virus that jumps from an animal to us and now, you know, threatens for another pandemic and pandemics can be avoided. You know, governments are working in coordination.
Um, and also, you know, let's go back to our, our climate change podcast, but I'm going to come in with the little one health, but also like respecting the environment as individuals and as government as well. So a lot of these spillover events, or zoonosis like viruses jumping from animals it's because it occurs because we're encroaching on their habitats were going to places that were not meant to be going.
We are, you know, Misusing animals in different ways. So I would say, you know, be more conscious of that. I think if we're more conscious of that and we, if we really consider the environment, when we talk about health, I think we can actually prevent a lot of these spillover
Jocelyne: events. I really love what you said that I don't do that.
I think even now we still don't really know the origin. No, not exactly. Not even predictions that there's been a call. There has been cost of our events in bats and different efficient markets, markets and stuff. But it just goes to show that, that there needs to be some form of, I don't know, I'm old. I deduced this to understand that it respect the environments, proper hygiene and they are not.
But I think I had a point at which I forgot now, countries. Now I'm talking to countries. I'm not talking to the publisher, but it's a country. Yeah. The healthcare sector is critical. Yeah. I know that a lot of countries have not put that. I think health is hurting. A lot of company is still not classified as a critical sector.
I'm pretty sure by now, you know, it's just critical. I don't understand why you have so much finance. You'd have so much money and finances going into weapons for wall. When the viruses coming for you, the viruses don't decide devices don't have any bias. They'll come for your country either way, whether you like it or not.
So you might as well be prepared. So I think, I think I strongly think that the healthcare sector needs more investments for better pandemic preparedness and mint is classified as a critical sector and take it a little bit more seriously.
Loza: Yeah. I mean, no, I, after this adapt and
Jocelyne: learn, because I know that yeah, someone, a country like France, they prioritize, they have a lot going on in terms of preparedness for terrorism.
Edna: And help towards the money for PPE.
about, remember when countries, even in Europe were
Jocelyne: scrambling for PPE,
Edna: France. I swear there was the story where allegedly, they tried to block this shipment that was going from Turkey, and then it was going to pass through France and go to another country.
Jocelyne: And the ship
Edna: had have eat the frog. They allegedly tried to stop.
It was getting embarrassing. It was getting
the money's there, but when it's.
Jocelyne: Uh, a pandemic within everyone better than a wall, right. To kill. He was right. He was right. We don't know if the pandemic is, if there's going to be a pandemic that will be spiritually. It could be, uh, uh, uh, fecal infection. It could be anything else. So be ready, stay ready.
Loza: No, they're mixed up. If there's a pandemic, they're going to blame you.
They're going to say, see, she
Edna: made it
Jocelyne: I mean, it wasn't really like that. I forgot. I heard there were two cases of Lassa fever and then you came not long ago, so I'm not saying it's that happens. I mean,
Edna: change the mosquitoes
Jocelyne: movie. I mean,
Edna: there's at your doorstep doorsteps. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and then yeah, like Johnson, like you mentioned that, um, What were you saying about wash?
Oh,
Jocelyne: sanitization
wash your husband.
In the lab, that's fairly, fairly sanitary sanitizer, hand sanitizer, but also making sure that the, the equipment are properly cleaned with ethanol, all the equipment that is needed properly, properly ambushed.
Edna: You don't just say, don't
Jocelyne: let this happen again. Just washed it. These are very important when it comes to, especially when it comes to the common decontaminating on food products, decontaminating water.
Decontaminating what different, different systems that we use for nutrition and stuff like that.
Edna: So, yeah. Great points again. Um, sometimes it's really down to basics,
Loza: like the things that can achieve.
Edna: Um, and then for me, just on the last point is. Obviously a lot of pandemic preparedness, like we said, from the beginning, it's not on you as a person to figure it out, who can not figure it out. They cannot figure it out. But I just came across all of these cool apps that I saw because of the interest of like, you know, public engagement with science and, you know, getting people like if you actually want to get more involved with the science, um, they are, for example, these apps where you can almost like help provide data that can then go into like tracking like diseases tracking pandemics and all that kind of stuff.
So the example is like, this is really initiative, like related to COVID where they had people fill out these like daily forms like that literally took one minute. And then the data they collected from that would actually help them, like predict and locate any like COVID hotspots. But that was originally one way that you, as a person could like contribute, you know what I mean?
Like you can actually help them identify what spots. Um, and then overall, when it comes to like other. You know, epidemics, um, like flu influenza, they are countries like Australia and New Zealand that have these like food tracking, uh, absence surveillance systems with digital health inputs, like some data.
And then, you know, that's how you be helping like even your government job to track and report cases and all these different things. So it's also investing in these early warning systems that could then help, um, even the governments and the future. So with that, do you guys have any more takeaways? Any last messages?
I
Jocelyne: mean,
Let's be kind to each other in the pandemic. Let's be human. You know, after the scientist enough, I took the countries after the government, but they don't ask people. There's no point of blaming other people blaming the non mask or blaming statement, or I won't wear my mask or I'll wear my mouth or I won't do it.
This, I think being kinder in a community and also offering support the people that are volunteering, um, to, to, to, to give food. Uh, to do groceries,
help out where you calm, you know, Wilson loving people. Yeah. Just leave it on a positive note. Yeah.
Edna: Nice window.
Loza: Yeah.
Edna: Well, otherwise this has been the world health
Jocelyne: investigation tasks, um, and I'm Loza. We are
Edna: three young noble health professionals and your host for the world. You are excellent. All
Jocelyne: of us, please plug
Easter ground.
Loza: I
Edna: mean,
Jocelyne: you probably see.
Anyways, beautiful up on Instagram, on the phone, on this call, we also have the Facebook investigation
period, right.
Loza: Also like what's up everything. Just follow us everywhere, whatever you have, open it and just follow it.
Jocelyne: We don't go through just some support.
humble, please. I'll begin with my chest. My chest
love me rest of the week.